Hidden Places

(Editorial comment) Due to the length of the dialog and the single thread, back-and-forth nature of the conversation, I decided to post this as a single comment. The original authors are indicated prior to the quotation. I really miss these kinds of conversations with Devon as they were very stretching for both of us.

Planet X got you thinking hasn't it Khomar.. =]

Khomar:

No, not really. :-) Actually, I would say it was more from some of the posts of Devon and See-thru, though I have pondered about these verses for a long time. The fact is that there is a lot that the Bible doesn't say about the very early days of human history. I don't want to spend too much time in idle speculation, but it is fun to examine now and then.

As I posted elsewhere, I have serious questions regarding Planet X because there simply is no historical or archaeological evidence to support such a cataclysmic event occurring around 1600 B.C. Something that big would have had to appear in numerous myths and legends from cultures around the world. Also, I believe the Bible would certainly have mentioned it as events of "Biblical proportions" are it's cup of tea, so to speak. ;-)

Devon_Saunders:

The timeline we were actually discussing was a 26,000 or 28,000 year eccentric orbit, not 1,600 BC, I had thought. Sorry for any misperception on that!

I also personally think that Mose's books were kinda a condensed version of the Qabal, which he would have had intimate knowledge of. So the timeline, biblically, may be compressed.

Dunno.. I'll blab about it when I get home.. ;)

Khomar:

I arrived at the 1600 BC date from the information on one of the videos posted in the Planet X thread stating that the planet came by every 3600 years. This is also stated in two separate reviews of the book. I have not read the book myself, so I am going off of the reviews here, but this is the number I have seen posted in other discussions as well. A 26,000 or 28,000 year orbit would put it into a realm where they would obviously be no historical record as our current written history does not go back that far.

Regarding the Biblical timeline, that is entirely possible. It was a common practice to omit certain generations from the genealogies so as to focus on the major ancestors or some other organizational structure. It is entirely possible that far more time transpired between the creation and flood than the Bible accounts for. This is why, while I don't totally discount the 6600 year old earth theory, I also don't cling to it too strongly.

It could be possible that Planet X, if it exists, could play into the Biblical end times prophesies as well. I am thinking particularly of this passage in Revelation:

The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.
(Rev 8:10-11)

Devon_Saunders:

I'm like you then.. I've an issue with a 3,600 year ago catastrophe.
As in I can still put talking-sticks in my hand from 3,600 years ago and they say nothing of anything like that going on. Which means it would have had to miss North America... we as a people were pretty extended on the continent as far as trading and news from other Tribes went.

Now, go back 9,000 or 16,000 years ago and I agree, there would be stuff to talk about.

:)

Khomar:

I am curious. According to your tribal traditions and history, how long have you been on the continent? How far back does your recorded history go?

Devon_Saunders:

Roughly 18,000 on the continent... about 39,000 total.

If you want a more in-depth on the Turtle Lands (what we called North America.. oddly enough, it is sorta turtle-shaped when seen from space) then you would have to check in with the Blackfoot.. they can count back 34,000 winters here.

Khomar:

How reliable is that count? In other words, how far back is the history highly accurate and when does it seem to fall more into the realm of legend and myth. How much of that is based on oral tradition, and how much can be supported by other evidence?

Devon_Saunders:

That's why I didn't go back the whole 44,000... ;)

We really have no written language.. what we have done is to pass it down orally. Not in a ~campfire tale~, however. There are people that take it on as all they do in the tribe, supported by a mnemonics system involving ~talking sticks~ and other aids.

The Blackfoot have beads, or stones, btw, to count thier winter cycles. However, they do not have the same ~storyteller~ or walking family history people that we have. So if you wanted hard evidence of how long the Blackfoot has been around, that is about it.

So nothing that we say will be supported by the white culture, as we do not carry around a ~book~. Not that we would anyways, because to us the brain is all you really need to make your world... not the articles around you.

We kept it simple... ;)

Khomar:

I saw earlier that you are descended from Cherokee and Hopi. Which tribal traditions do you generally follow, or are they compatible? In doing a bit of research, I find it interesting that the Hopi also have a tradition of the major flood that sounds very similar to that recorded in the Bible. My understanding is that nearly every society has a flood myth in their legends which leads me to believe that at the very least there was a flood that affected all of the people alive at that time.

BTW, I believe I am also 1/16 Cherokee... along with German, French, Norwegian, English, Danish, Welsh, and Scottish -- Heinz 57 sauce as my grandpa described it. ;-)

I just say that I am an American.

Devon_Saunders:

They are not generally compatable, but that really doesn't matter to a lot of Native Americans.. most have an ~Us against them~ mentality anyways. Which, if you look at the history of the US, do you really blame them.. ;)

My beliefs are primarily from the Hopi side, although I've more than a bit of Delaware lore that I've been kicking around.

The Hopi have 2 major floods, actually. Although the last one, around 26,000 years ago, was a lot more than that. It was the whole "Mountains rising where there were none, Oceans swallowing land, Fire in the sky BADNESS". It was something from the sky.

That's why I was kinda wondering about the planet x deal.

:)

Khomar:

If they are not compatible, then how did you choose which oral tradition to believe? What makes the Hopi tradition better than the Cherokee or the Blackfoot, for example?

This brings up another question I have as I have been thinking about this. How would you go about verifying the accuracy of an oral tradition? You can see the changes, omissions, or additions that occurred over time in the Bible by looking at the older manuscripts which is why we can be pretty certain that we have a very accurate rendition compared to what was originally written. As I have said elsewhere, the Old Testament books have been compared back to 100 B.C. in the Dead Sea Scrolls and found to have changed very little.

However, with an oral tradition, you would have no such benchmark to compare against. You could, however, compare the oral tradition of one tribe with another neighboring tribe. It would seem that they should parallel each other pretty closely to collaborate or bring a different point of view to shared experiences. If they differed greatly, you would begin to think that inaccuracies could have been introduced.

This brings up a more difficult position: we know that religion is often misused as a method of controlling or manipulating people. Would it not be possible that omissions and additions could be added to the oral tradition in times long past to promote a clan or tribe or to revise the history to cast them in a more positive light? Just as such issues are raised with Christianity, would not be just as plausible in a culture with an oral tradition? And if so, how could one determine when such errors were introduced? Having not come from a culture with a strong oral tradition, I am not familiar with how such issues would be addressed.

Devon_Saunders:

Same as you do, my friend... faith.

I know my worldview is right when I close my eyes and listen.

:)

I go by the Hopi version... it is bolstered by other Native American beliefs, your bible, other religions worldwide. I do not pick and choose points... I was pointing out that my beliefs are backed by every other religion that I am aware of.

Religion and power do not come into play in how I believe. It is not a religion... it is just how you live. There is nothing to gain monetarily by believing one thing or the other. We don't have money... lol. As for power in the Tribe, each does what they are good at. Everyone has the same say in what the Tribe does. The Chief is the one picked for the particualar task at hand... not a sitting Chief. So power is distributed. Some are seen as more ~powerful~ than others based on what they can DO... not what they think or can ~make~ another believe. If they do lead, it is by example.

So there was no need to ~rewrite~ or change what we thought in the first place. It is a rather simple concept, after all. That past events may be muddled with time, sure!

However, we do not base what we do on past events.. it is all about you. And how you fit in with the Tribe, NOW. And how you feel about what is happening.

Khomar:

That makes a certain degree of sense as far as your belief system -- how you live your life -- but would it not make it difficult to trust the historical aspects of your people? Also, while that may be the case for your tribe today, it may not have been that way throughout the thousands of years of tribal history. I guess I just see a lot of room for error in looking at the oral tradition as a reliable source for history. The Bible has similar problems in the earliest passages as there is little archaeological or historical information from before the flood, but they are finding new information all of the time that sheds new light on the Bible and supports it in its historical commentary. In fact, the Bible is one the most accurate of the ancient manuscripts -- so much so that many archaeologists have begun to look first to see what the Bible says before starting a dig because it often aids in their discovery of new finds.

In light of this, why should I believe the Hopi history over the Biblical account of history? I don't really want to bash or dismiss the Hopi oral tradition as I believe there is probably a lot to learn from it -- especially as it may fill in gaps that the Bible simply does not talk about -- but in my search for the Truth of history, I find it difficult to put much faith in it. I could just as easily say that the similarities between the Hopi account and the Bible lead greater credence to the Bible's account.

I hope this does not come across badly, as I do not want to put you on the defensive or to attack your beliefs. I am just trying to evaluate the various facts I have before me.

Devon_Saunders:

No.. this comes across well.. you are being both fair and analytical, something I treasure from your posts.

What I posted is no longer the case in my Tribe today.. this is how it was done historically. Nowadays, my Tribe has splintered.. there is a group that is all about the welfare state, there is a group that attempts to be just intellectual about it, there is a group that soaks the American Government for every bit of coin it can get for our people, there is a group that lives the older way.

I am in your boat, in a sense... I live the older way, the way that works.

However, our histories are just there just because they are... yes, some stories are used to make a point about everyday life, others are just facts passed down. Our history does not have a life of its own. it doesn't have to... it is, after all, history. I do not need to know, for instance, where a city was in the Saharas 4,000 years ago to tell you that we survived getting here 18,000 years ago. I am here, so I guess it worked... :)

The truth in something is just something that you know. A book cannot tell you that. You can read a book and tell when some things are right or wrong. If enough of the things in the book appear right to you, then you stretch your beliefs to accommodate the rest. That is how most religions work. We don't do that. A belief system, to us, is what you feel when you wake up. What is true. What is not. It ties into the fabric that we know is there.

That you do not want to lend any credence to what a Native American says has happened I more than readily understand. After all, nobody has listened to us the last six times everyone killed everyone else off.. so why should this time be any different?

We are used to this and we are more than OK with it. It is just what happens... ;)

So thank you again for being analytical about my version of history. It is something everyone should do... be discerning. I take no offense at it... what I believe, after all, does not require your faith in it. It just is.

:)

Khomar:

I didn't say that I don't lend any credence to what Native Americans say. Quite the contrary, I think there is a lot that can be learned from Native Americans and their teachings. However, I have to take that knowledge with a grain of salt recognizing the room for error that exists there -- even the part about six times everyone tried to kill everyone, although that wouldn't surprise me too much. The Bible talks a lot about the nature of man that echoes that sentiment. Mankind has too much pride and selfishness not to try to destroy each other from time to time.

I value your insights and beliefs, though admittedly I do not agree with a lot of it, as it helps keep me sharp and teaches me a thing or two. I find the concept of filters to be very interesting, but might I suggest that you may have one or two of your own. ;-)

Devon_Saunders:

I'll make a post next week on carbon-dating the last 6 times everyone killed everyone or everyone got killed by a catastrophic event. The evidence is all there. :)

I was wondering when we would get to the time that you would point out my specific filters. Of course I have them... we all need certain ones to survive. Otherwise we would get ALL the input ALL the time... look at an autistic for an example of how that particular scenario goes.

I value your responses to my posts because of your particular filters as well. Sometimes I wonder how things look behind Christain filters. You are invaluable in that, as you don't have the usual knee-jerk reaction to something, but instead debate a subject. As a Christian. So it gives me another viewpoint.

So thank you for that... ;)

For stick

Wed, 07/16/2008 - 22:26

from my understanding it does show up in Sumerian text, in fact I believe that is where the name Nibiru comes from but I'll defer to people that have actually looked into this as I have barely scratched the surface because there are things that I consider more important right now, but I am always on the look out for info.

For chiefronpaul:

Tue, 07/15/2008 - 21:43

I am not trying to corner you on this at all.

I respect what you have to say on this, I was in "Private School" for my Jr High years (per say).

I think that you have more insight into what I have been told.

I listen to Devon on this and it is like Well dah they were the people that were here before us!!

You read about the Mormon church and you start to scatch your head???